S1, E13: The Hidden Reality of Refugee Studies: Academic Insights from the Frontlines

[00:00:00] I think the best thing about my career is meeting new people. Imagine, I mean, every semester I’m meeting at least 50 new students who are like 20 year olds. I could have said publications. Yes, I do publish and I do feel happy when I publish, but then how many people really go back and read my publications?

You know, they’re all, I realized. That I’m a part people’s person and having these new people in my life really makes it valuable. Did you know the average person will work 90, 000 hours in their lifetime? What if you could use those hours to find fulfillment and become a disrupter for good? Welcome to the work That’s worth it.Podcast.

I’m Georgi Enthoven. And I’m here to demonstrate that an ambitious, meaningful, and rewarding career is not just a dream. It’s achievable. Each episode, we’ll dive into conversations with global change makers who cracked the code on combining income and impact. If you’ve [00:01:00] ever felt like you were torn between a paycheck and your purpose, or maybe you simply yearn for more purpose, you’re going to be exposed to the ambitious humans who have done it themselves, ready to make your work worth it.

Let’s get started.

Today, we’re venturing into the world of academia to meet someone whose work has global significance in one of our era’s most pressing challenges. From the vibrant city of Istanbul, Turkey, our guest, Dr. Deniz Sert is using her position as professor and chair of the Department of International Relations at Erzygen University to tackle complex questions about human migration and displacement.

In a world where migration shapes politics, economies, and countless lives, Dr. Sert’s research into refugee rights and migration governance isn’t just academic. It’s deeply personal and profoundly impactful. She brings both scholarly expertise and real world perspective to a [00:02:00] field where policies directly affect human dignity.

Let’s listen in to discover how Dr. Sert combines her passion for teaching with advocacy for displaced people, and how she finds meaning in work that spans classrooms, research papers, and international policy forums. Hi Deniz, it’s lovely to have you here. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for the invitation.

Yeah, I am excited about this conversation. We have not had a professor on an episode yet, so that will be wonderful. And I was wondering if you can start by sharing with us, what is your personal mission for the work that you do? Well, I, I really care deeply about migration, human mobility, and the policies that shape people’s lives as they move across borders.

And my work is driven by a desire to improve migration governance and advocate for more humane and just policies for displaced people. Because I recognize that mobility in [00:03:00] global times is highly unequal. I mean, some individuals more freely across borders due to their nationality. passport matters, or their economic status, I mean if they have capital it is much easier to move around, or professional affiliations, while others face severe restrictions, discrimination, and very precarious conditions.

And this disparity in mobility rights It really deepens the global inequalities and reinforce systematic barriers for marginalized populations. So I would say addressing these imbalances is really a crucial part, uh, of my, of my work. I mean, migration, basically what I’m arguing is yes, the world is more globalized and we are living in a faster and deeper and smaller world, but is this globalization really affecting everyone equally?

And migration, I think, is a, is an area where it doesn’t. Okay. And you’re, just for the listeners to know, you’re [00:04:00] based in Istanbul, Turkey. Yes, I’m based in Turkey, and Turkey, in a very short period of time, especially after this crisis in Syria, became one of the largest host countries of the refugee populations in the world.

Yeah. Deniz, how did you get into this line of work? Okay. I mean, I, there were actually some chance encounters, but at the same time, as I got into studying more about this topic, I was, I think, more really delving into that personal mission of mine, I would say. I did my PhD in, about the political right, I mean, I mean, property rights of internally displaced people.

So, I mean, starting with my PHD, I was really interested in especially conflict induced internally displaced persons. And I was more interested in the, the return and resettlement policies. [00:05:00] And then when once, and I did my PhD in the, in the States, I was in United States. I was at, at CUNY Graduate Center.

And when I came back to Turkey, actually international migration was not a very hot topic, I would say at that time, we were really like a few number of people who are working on this issue. But then, in time, the more I started meeting people, like different migrants, or, like, advocates, people working in this field, like in international organizations, local organizations, non governmental organizations, I mean, this really, this, this really intrigued me.

I mean, migration is not really a very easy topic to actually study under political science because, you know, it is not like quantum physics. Everybody has an opinion. And I’m really working on a subject that everyone has an opinion. And within this context, ensuring that my academic [00:06:00] insights contribute to real world solutions.

I mean, that would be great. And I, maybe I could say that’s my personal mission. I’m not sure whether I’m there yet, but hopefully I’ll get there. And did you always know that you wanted to be in academia? Oh, no, not at all. I mean, when I started my undergrad, actually, I started my degree in international relations, and at that time, my father had a print shop, and my biggest dream was to open a press of my own, you know, like I was going to publish books.

that was my ideal. But then as I started taking more and more courses in political science, you know, like courses about like different global issues, I really said, okay, you know, maybe this is what I’m, and I realized I was good at it as well. And I decided to become an academic. much later than my undergrad.

Yeah. How did you realize you were good at it? I always, I mean, I was always lucky in my career [00:07:00] because I always had very good mentors, I would say. I mean, I, I had very good professors and this was true for my undergrad. It was true for my graduate studies, and it was also true for my PhD. They really encouraged me to actually change my path towards.

academia, and they also involved me in their own research at a younger stage, I would say, and this is also something that I’m trying to do with my own students as well. I try to involve them in my own research, I mean, even at an undergrad level as well. So I was very lucky, I should say. Yeah, so your academic opportunities allowed you to already get a taste of what research and academia was about and, and then having your professors there to really shine a light on how you’re doing and give you opportunities was helpful.

Exactly. I mean, it was really helpful. And I mean, that, that was something that I always valued. And that is also something that I’m, I’m always trying to [00:08:00] impose on my own students as well. Yeah, you’re playing it forward. Exactly. Yeah. And the word, the use of the word impose, is that, do you find resistance to it or?

Yes. I mean, sometimes I do find resistance because, you know, academia is not the most popular path for the youngsters anymore. You might guess, I mean, I have two Gen Z’s at home, you know, like reading and writing and doing research. I mean, especially now with this entire AI world, it seems like ridiculous for some of them.

But I mean, some of them do really have talent and they are interested and I really try to encourage, encourage them to get into the academia. Yeah. So how has being an academic and studying migration being able to like what I call make your work worth it? How has it been able to make the combination of those two?

I actually, as a professor and a researcher, and I’m also giving consulting to some international [00:09:00] organizations as well, I try to ensure that my academic research has practical applications by working with policymakers, international organizations, and NGOs to shape migration policies. And during a period where public opinion on international migrants is getting more negative every day, we are now divided.

I mean, there is like a group of cosmopolitans and a group of communitarians. I wouldn’t say it is like, it is beyond the division between left and right anymore. I think raising a positive public awareness is also an important part of, part of my work. So I really try to integrate, I would say, my personal mission in, in, into my, my work in academia.

As well. Yeah. So I would love to talk about your capabilities of, you mentioned a little bit, but I would love to talk about what kind of strengths that you have in particular that have made you be able to be successful in this [00:10:00] field. I’m a people’s person, I would say, and I think I’m good at synthesizing complex issues for diverse audiences.

And I think that’s the reason why my current experience spans academia, consultancy, and advocacy all at the same time. So, and I think, in time, I realized that Or actually, I should say, early in my career, I noticed that things that I could do, and I took for granted for being able to do so, are not really easy tasks for everyone.

Like for example, like being organized, I mean, I’m, I’m very particular about my inbox. You know, it’s like my to do list. I’m very clean about it. Or replying emails, responding to people. This realization really helped me shape my professional path, I think, early on. And, I mean, it’s, it, I, I also leverage these strengths through time, I, I could say.

Yeah. Yeah. So getting comfortable [00:11:00] with what you are, your advantages, it takes a while to sort of understand it and then be able to lean into it. So it’s a process that unfolds over time. Certainly. I mean, it did take me a lot of time. I mean, for example, I came across my older professors, I mean, they were really struggling, like answering an email, for example, like, and I would always say like, You know, you should just answer this and be done with it.

I mean, it is not a big deal. So that you have one checkmark done on your to do list, because, you know, I’m, I’m always working like that. I mean, I always have a to do list that I’m marking. You’re pushing things forward. Yes, exactly. I try to push things forward. It, it did take time, but through time, I think I, I have leveraged my strengths.

And also, I think through these strengths. I could get leadership roles in academia. I also do a lot of editorial contributions to migration journal and consulting [00:12:00] and also civil society as well. Yeah. I, I would love to find out a bit about more about. How connected you are to sort of the people that you are ultimately helping, which are the migrants, whether it’s refugees or people migrating in a different way.

And I would want to know like how much that, how, how much connection you have with them. And if that is something that you’ve learned to, I like, how have you learned to hold that the emotional part of it? Yeah, I mean, I think it is a, I’m not really sure if I can really hold the emotional part of it all the time.

I mean, sometimes I do find myself making other people’s problems my problem. So I wouldn’t say that I’m, I’m always very good at it. But of course, you know, when you’re a researcher, the biggest thing that you have to be careful about is the ethics part of this research and doing no harm is the most [00:13:00] important part of this.

I mean, like the ethical principles and that’s, that’s a major concern that I have not harming the person that I’m talking to when I’m doing my research and also not harming myself as well. So I try to, I try to protect. I think the both sides there, but I don’t know if you ever heard about this, but in, in Turkey also, we are not in a very easy period of time.

And when migration, and when the first group of Syrians came to the country in 2011, very soon after the government actually issued the first censorship, I think, on the migration scholars. So, basically, if you wanted to do research on migration, you were subject to a permit. But then, they never really transparently explained how you apply for this permit, where to get it, how to get it, who would get it, you know, and [00:14:00] there’s still not a very transparent situation on that.

But during this time, with a number of my colleagues from different universities, we established an association. So we established a civil society organization of our own. This association is called the Association for Migration Research. And the entire idea there is to do research. or advocate for the younger people to do research within the context of all these ethical considerations and also raising public awareness on the problems of the migrants.

Basically, the idea is to be able to do all these. Without doing harm, uh, as I said, yeah, and working together so that you can use discretion and then also ideally together understand what the censorship means and how to play around it when you’re all united. Exactly. And also, uh, as, [00:15:00] as time passed. I mean, initially, you know, they were just subjects of our research.

But now, for example, currently, with another colleague of mine, we are working with a Syrian academic who came to Turkey under a temporary protection regime, and now he’s an academic here. You know, like, now we became co authors, so, you know, it is not only voicing them, but also giving them voice because, you know, like we are voicing together, I would say.

So we try to do that. I mean, of course we have a long way to go, I have to admit, but we try to collaborate on a more equal level with these people now. Yeah. So the relationships that you have formed in your professional life seem to have played a really large part. You’ve brought up a few things already about working, you know, with your students, collaborating with your professors and your peers.[00:16:00]

How do you view relationships? Is it something that you give thought to about sort of role models, mentors, being a role model, mentor? I mean, I think if you want to build expertise on anything, it is through collaboration. I think you have to seek mentors, and as I said, I was very lucky in this sense. I always had good mentors, and I always had actually very good colleagues as well who were really pushing me forward.

especially female colleagues. I, I would, I should, I should really underline that. Having good female colleagues and maybe I should say compatriots with working with you also, also really help. So it also opens your horizons in different ways because Once you build expertise through collaboration, you can contribute to multidisciplinary projects, you know, like you get more international as well.

Academia is not [00:17:00] something like you are in your ivory tower. Just sitting down, reading books, and writing whatever you are interested in anymore. I mean, like, you really have to communicate with people, I mean, both to do your research and also to, how should I say, to disseminate that research as well. So You do, you do need people around you, so, and also if, if our listeners at all interested in academia, they have to be ready to engage beyond academia as well.

I mean, they have to work with policy institutions, NGOs, government bodies, and the public at large as well. I mean, like. For example, you have to go to a high school and, you know, like give a short seminar about, uh, about the topic that interests you so that you can raise awareness and also get, raise some interest among the youngsters on the issues that interest you as well.

So it is very important. [00:18:00] So in a way it’s, it, it sounds like you’re quite entrepreneurial, like you are within a institution, but you have to continually be advocating for your own research, getting it, uh, a broader audience and also bringing people into the program and getting people interested in the topics you’re interested in.

Sounds like you’ve, you, you juggle a lot of roles. Yes, actually. Okay. Basically what we do is we have like, I mean, in academia, I think we have four main roles. In my university, at least, we are Every once in a while, evaluated on four, under four main headings. One of them is research, how much you publish, publish and, or perish is, is the, you know, common norm in academia.

Teaching, teaching is an important part, but teaching not only in the sense of what you teach within classroom, but what you do outside of the classroom. How many students you, you involve in your research projects, you know, all that is also part of it, or how many publications [00:19:00] you do right with your students is, it’s also part of it.

Other one is service. I mean, like in any institution, you always have to do service and this service is Within the, within the university, but also there’s, there’s also service to the community. I mean, service to the public. I mean, how much service do you give to the academia? Like how many journal refereeing have you been doing?

How many conference proceedings are you referring to? And all these things are also part of the job. So, I mean, being an academic, it’s, it’s, as I said, it’s not only about teaching and research, but, you know, it is also, it involves a lot of engagement with other actors. As well. So you do have to, as you said, juggle many things at the same time.

Yeah. So being a people person is important. It is important. Yeah. Yeah. And the average career is about 90, 000 hours. And how do you stay motivated to continue [00:20:00] to show up every day? I mean, obviously there’s an income part of it, but beyond that and your personal mission, but what like gets you up every day?

Okay. That’s a, that’s a very good question. Yeah. I think diversifying my work between research, teaching, And consultancy is really helping because I’m not doing the same thing every day. Okay. It helps you. Exactly. Change going on. Exactly. There’s lots of change going on. And also, I mean, I know we always complain about these Gen Z, you know, like the new generation, et cetera, but I have to admit engaging with students do bring fresh perspectives.

I mean, so it, it also really helps me. To get your life, like the younger generation, you can feel their energy and enjoy their enthusiasm for life. Exactly. Also, you always get, you always stay up to date. You know, you, [00:21:00] you never, you never get, you never, you never get, I mean, you don’t have the luxury to get old.

I would say in that sense. Maybe you don’t feel old. Exactly. And also, I try to pursue different projects with real world policy applications all the time. That also helps. I mean, I’m, I’m trying to, you know, get, get, be involved in an inter most of the time I try to make it interdisciplinary and international projects.

It also helps me to stay motivated. Yeah. Now I have a question for you regarding like refugees and migration. I sometimes talk to people that are either in college or after, and they may be interested in working with refugees in some form. What are the kinds of opportunities that are available for young professionals?

Okay. I mean, academia is always. one path. But at the same time, there are also a lot of [00:22:00] international organizations like the, I mean, the International Organization for Migration, the IOM, or the UNHCR, you know, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. World Food Organization, for example, World Health Organization, I mean all of these, or UNICEF, all of them really have opportunities to work with migrants if you’re interested.

But at the same time, there are also some international non governmental organizations who are doing like research worldwide. That’s, that can also be another path. And you, most of the time, Donors also are interested in migration because, I mean, this is one of the most important and challenging topics of time.

I mean, if you want to work in donor organizations, like, I don’t know, I mean, like Germany, for example, has Stiftungs all over the world. Many of these Stiftungs have their own research missions. [00:23:00] Going on as well. That’s that. That can be another, another pathway. And also local organizations and it act, and it’s also very interdisciplinary.

I mean, you can be in psychology, anthropology, sociology, political science, economics, but I mean, migration studies is really a field. that can encompass all of these different fields at the same time. There are so many things that they can do, but they have to take the initiative and they have to be the word you use is like very entrepreneurial.

I would say. Yeah. And the aid work, like what kind of people do you see doing well at that? Like what characteristics of somebody would like, if you do see a pattern? I think they’re one of the most important things is to be able to protect themselves. Because as you said, this job, especially if they’re involved in aid work, they are always subject to.

secondary trauma. [00:24:00] So they have to find a way to protect their own well being. So they, they have to be very strong willed in the, in that sense. So you can’t just have a kind heart. You’ve got to actually know that’s not going to last the 90, 000 hours and you’re going to need to be able to keep your own health and mental wellness looked after.

Exactly. And you have to keep a good work life balance, especially if you’re in that, in that area. I mean, I have some colleagues in working for the UNHCR, for example, I mean, I can see that they have almost no work life balance. At the same time, if you hear about a refugee being deported at the airport in the middle of the night, of course, it gets very hard to keep that work life balance because, you know, you suddenly find yourself at the airport trying to help out.

And sometimes you cannot help [00:25:00] out. I mean, sometimes things are beyond you. You also, I think you should also have a certain level of acceptance. Uh, or accepting the limits of your own power as well. Yeah. So really having some form of boundaries, whether it’s even sort of the hours you’re willing to work or making sure you take your vacation or whatever it is, otherwise you don’t, there’s never going to, you’re never going to be done with the work.

Exactly. I mean, it’s, it is endless. I mean, that’s what I see in my friends, but I, for example, I had, I had a friend who was working for the UNHCR and I always, I mean, I once asked her, like, you are hearing Because, you know, getting a refugee status is also a very hard thing for the refugee because the refugee has to retell his or her story all the time, you know, like go through that trauma again and again.

And the person who’s listening, who’s listening, I mean, the officer who’s taking the notes is also going through that trauma at the same time. And I had a friend who was [00:26:00] doing this job and once I asked her, like, how do you cope with this? And she said, like, once the day, work day is over. It’s over because otherwise I cannot even sleep, you know, if I dwell on things.

Further in my mind, because it’s a, it can be very, very traumatic experience. Yeah. So you have to be able to draw a line. Like maybe even like a doctor would be a similar profession where you’re not always going to have success and you’re going to really feel it when you don’t. And somehow you’ve got to be able to turn it off and go home and engage in a different part of your life.

Exactly. And you have to, you have to also learn how to say no. And I think this is true for every, maybe I should say, every career path. I mean, we have to learn how to say no. I mean, saying a no is It’s not a bad thing. I mean, it’s, it’s something that protects you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me, saying no is really, once I have a really clear mission in mind, [00:27:00] it makes it a lot easier.

What has made that easier for you? I’m still learning. I mean, I, Okay, I’m giving the, exactly. I mean, I, I’m, I’m giving the advice, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that I can do it forever in my own life all the time. I mean, at one point though, I did re, I did realize that it was shortening my own lifespan because I was getting very stressful.

And I, I was thinking that I could solve all the problems in the world, but then, you know, that realization came to me that I cannot really solve all the problems in the world. So, it, I mean, it is still taking time. I mean, my kids are, are making fun of me from time to time. They’re like, they, they, they keep on telling me, Mom, you never say no, you know, like you make everyone’s problems your own problem.

You know, you should give a break. Yeah, I mean. But I, I’m learning. I’m still learning. Yeah, but it’s [00:28:00] also what makes you successful at what you do, the amount you care. And so that’s probably the most difficult part is like what makes you successful is also what can hurt you. Exactly. But I think it is also true for every, every profession.

And you brought up your girls. How is it being a mother and raising children in the career that you have chosen? It’s been difficult because For example, my younger daughter, she has a friend in her class from Syria. They grew up together, but they cannot get along at all. And I, I mean, like once I even, I mean, heard even my own kid making very anti migrant comments.

I mean, it was, it was very difficult for me to actually deal with it. Now she’s older and she actually understands things better. And she knows she’s, she has a lot more awareness right now because she was only five years old when she, she was doing these things. But you can easily see [00:29:00] how all these actually anti refugee, anti migrant sentiments Can get a hold on.

I mean, like, yes, exactly. Even in my own household, because I mean, we don’t even have a TV at home. I mean, like, and we never, you know, talk about these things in that manner. But, I mean, she still, she still could develop such a, such a thing. So it’s been, it’s been very, it’s been difficult, but I try to get them engaged.

If I, if I’m doing, uh, if we are, if I’m involved in a community work, I take them with me. So they learn. I mean, they actually, my young, my older daughter makes fun of me. She says like, she, I used to take her to a migrant solidarity kitchen. when she was going to primary school. And, you know, we were cooking with the migrants together and then we were actually distributing the food within the neighborhood for free.

And she still remembers those days. She says, you know, this is what makes a difference of being a daughter of an academic. [00:30:00] Because, you know, none of, none of her friends, of course, had that kind of an experience. Yeah, I mean, it is, it is difficult. Also, it is difficult to be a woman. I think it is true for every profession, but, I mean, it is, it is even, it can even get difficult in the classroom.

Sometimes you can hear your male student mansplaining you in the class, and You have to confront that while teaching that what he’s doing is wrong. So it can, it can, it can be difficult. But at the same time, of course, like, I always feel that we have more responsibilities than our male colleagues.

Because, you know, when, for example, I can give you this, this story. Once my husband had a job interview and suddenly he went abroad for this interview on a Thursday and he came back on Monday and he said, okay, I got the job. I’m going away for a [00:31:00] five month project. And the following week he goes gone. And then I was, I was going to get a sabbatical and I was talking to my kids and I said, I want to take a one year sabbatical and they said, you can’t.

I’m like, why? They said. But I mean, what are we going to do when you’re gone? And I said, like, your father simply went for five months and you never questioned this. And you know, I just want to take a year off and you are questioning. And they’re like, but it’s not the same thing. Yeah. The role of the mother is you carry a lot.

Yes. And I mean, I have to admit like in my family, we do share all the daily burdens of life. I mean, like my husband is not a typical patriarchal person. I mean, he does help, but still like in the children’s minds, the place that you hold is quite different than the place that I mean, and imagine this on a community level, and Turkey is a very [00:32:00] patriarchal society.

So it is, it is, it is very tough, I mean, for, for, for a woman, I would say. Well, thank you for sharing that personal story. That really gives us some insight into, you know, how those gender roles affect you. And yeah, it’s, you’re tired, you need a break. And even in your own family, they think that they need you.

Yes, exactly. I mean, I did take time off later on. But unfortunately, for other reasons, I couldn’t really go abroad, but because the semester that I took my sabbatical, we had a very large earthquake in Turkey. And I mean, a large proportion of the Syrians living in Turkey were living in the earthquake region.

So instead of going abroad for my sabbatical, I spend a lot of time in the earthquake region doing, doing observation reports. So my sabbatical turned out to be something totally different than what I imagined. Wow. So on last words of why somebody may want to [00:33:00] have a similar career to you, what has it given you?

A lot of people. I mean, I have a lot of people in my life that I’m really happy to have them around me. So I think the best thing about my career is meeting new people. Imagine, I mean, every semester I’m meeting at least 50 new students who are like 20 year olds. I could have said, publications, yes, I do publish, and I do feel happy when I publish, but then, how many people really go back and read my publications?

You know, they’re all, I realized. That I’m a people’s person and having these new people in my life really makes it valuable. The people you carry on this journey with you. Journey of life. Journey of life. Exactly. I mean, for example, in Turkey, we have some special days. We have a teacher’s day, which we celebrate on, on November.

And, you know, during those times, I always, like, receive messages from my graduate students or from my actual, from, I mean, like, current [00:34:00] students, like, you know, celebrating the day, thanking for what I have added to their lives. That really motivates me, and I, I realize that’s the best part. Of my job. Yeah.

Touching people and changing their lives. I mean, I don’t know if I changed their lives, but it, I mean, I, I do touch, I, I can say. Yeah. Well, Deniz, it’s been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for sharing all your insights, and it was just fascinating. You’ve had such a fascinating career, but look forward to staying in touch, and thank you so much.

Thank you. It was a pleasure being here. What struck me most about my conversation with Deniz was how she’s created meaningful work by deliberately expanding beyond traditional academic boundaries. She’s found ways to make research directly impact policy while creating pathways for students and refugees alike.

Her candor about the emotional challenges of this work, learning to say no and accepting the limits of one. Power reminds us that purpose-driven careers require sustainable approaches. And that moment when she describes her children’s [00:35:00] different reactions to her sabbatical versus her husband’s extended work trip.

This is a universal experience that crosses cultures. Deniz shows us that meaningful work isn’t just about what you do, but about the relationships you build and the boundaries you maintain while doing it. And that’s a wrap for today’s episode of work That’s Worth it. Remember. Every conversation we share is designed to empower you to build a career that’s truly worth your time and energy.

There are future disruptors out there just like you who would appreciate the conversations in this podcast. Please support me by spreading the word and sharing this episode with a friend or two, or visit my website. at georgienthoven.com. That’s spelled G E O R G I E N T H O V E N.com. Until next time, ask yourself, what problems am I solving and are they worth my valuable time?

Your intentional choices today can lead to exponential impact tomorrow.

Thanks for [00:36:00] listening.