S1, E16: Turning Corporate Law into Global Impact: Finding the Work That Lights You Up

[00:00:00] It was like the butterfly effect. You know, that tiny little disruption can create a massive change. And so the answer to your question is a series of things that were unusual, atypical, and in and of themselves completely unremarkable happened. That completely changed my career and my life and keeps changing my career and my life.

Did you know the average person will work 90,000 hours in their lifetime? What if you could use those hours to find fulfillment and become a disruptor for good? Welcome to the Work That’s Worth It. Podcast. I’m Georgi Enthoven, and I’m here to demonstrate that. Vicious, meaningful and rewarding career is not just a dream, it’s achievable.

Each episode we’ll dive into conversations with global change makers who crack the code on combining income and impact. If you’ve ever felt like you were torn between a paycheck and your purpose, or maybe you simply yearn for more purpose, you’re going to be exposed to the. Vicious [00:01:00] humans who have done it themselves ready to make your work worth it.

Let’s get started

today on work that’s worth it. I am excited to welcome Scott Curran. Scott is the CEO of Beyond Advisors, where he simplifies the complex aspects of doing good for an impressive roster of clients. His expertise as social impact and legal advisor has benefited former president’s global brand and high profile not-for-profits, including the UN Foundation, the Starbucks Foundation, Sean Penn’s core, and the Will and Jada Smith Family Foundation.

Before founding his consulting firm, Scott served as general counsel for the Clinton Foundation, where he witnessed what he calls the modern golden age of philanthropy. His unique journey began with his graduation from an inaugural class of the Clinton School for Public Service. Today, Scott shares his expertise by teaching [00:02:00] lawyers as social innovators at Chicago Kent College of Law serves on multiple boards and leadership councils, and is working on a book.

Scott’s story is a fascinating example of how following your curiosity can lead to work that’s truly worth it. Welcome, Scott. So great to have you on the work that’s worth the podcast. Oh, thank you. I’m so happy to be here. Yeah, well, happy to jump in with you and learn all about what you’ve been up to, and I was wondering if you can start with what makes your work worth it.

Small question. Yeah. Uh, an important one though, and, and I think that’s part of the answer, is that it’s more important than ever and, and the various aspects of sort of what led me to where I am today, both the legal degree, the detour into philanthropy, the wider exploration and adventure and social impact and teaching.

It’s, it seems that we are in a moment where all of those things combined are more relevant and necessary than they’ve been in a long time. And so I’d say that’s the thing that makes it worth it. [00:03:00] Now. Is just having this broad range of different aspects of work that you’re involved in and then also having the meaning behind it.

Yeah, and I have this conversation often where you can only connect the dots looking backwards. And so if I was giving somebody advice about whether or not they should do the things I’ve done, if I was looking at myself as a 24-year-old just out of law school. I would say that’s a meandering and and interesting path, but I’m not sure I would recommend it.

But looking backwards, it makes perfect sense. Yeah, I do hear that often. Well, let’s go back to law school. When you were 24, what were you hoping for in your career? Where were you going at that stage? Well, when I was 24, I was practicing, so I was out of law school. But the sort of thing that was eating away at my brain is that I was a young corporate lawyer at a law firm and I thought, well, I never backpacked across Europe.

I never studied abroad. I didn’t do the things that some of my are adventurous. Friends and classmates did, and I, I wondered if I had made the right choice. And I also knew I wasn’t going to practice corporate law forever. I went to law school [00:04:00] saying that I wasn’t going to be a lawyer. And what I meant by that was I wasn’t planning to be a traditional lawyer in practice as a career, but that’s where I was.

So I sort of had these two existential crises building at the same time about whether I did it all too fast and what I was going to do next. Yeah. And so what even drew you to getting a law degree? ’cause that’s no easy feat, but if you already knew that was not something you wanted to practice, was it just sort of this narrow funnel of options that were presented to you or thought that you would level up credentials and then figure it out?

Both. And so back in the mid nineties when I was in college, law school was a great and safe choice. There was no such thing as unemployed lawyers really to speak of at the time. And it was during the the first.com bubble and boom. And so it was pre bust of that bubble and there were lawyer jobs for everybody and there were.

Vastly diverse lawyer jobs for everybody. So I thought, I won’t be a practicing lawyer in the traditional sense, but I’ll get this degree that will give me this [00:05:00] knowledge base and skillset, and then I’ll figure out from there. And it was a combination of the fact that I, I had originally grown up most of my life wanting to be an astronaut, thinking I would be an engineer as a result.

And then I went on my first college visit to Purdue and, and saw what was involved in an engineering degree and thought, wait, that’s a lot more math and science than I would prefer to do for four years. So I took a hard pivot. And did not go to Purdue, but, but got a liberal arts and science degree in speech communications and a minor in sociology from the University of Illinois.

And so those two degrees were awesome and I loved them. And I still use both of them today, but they didn’t prepare me for much of a career. And so I knew I needed to do something else. I’d always felt grad school was on the radar and I was genuinely intrigued about the law. And so that’s what led me to law school.

And then law school is a way of. Pushing you into a lane, and especially then when there were so many jobs and everybody was getting one. It was a really fun and interesting time to become a corporate lawyer, and so I was happy to become one. I just still [00:06:00] had that mindset that it wasn’t what I would do forever, but I did do it for five years.

I have a question for you where you said you didn’t do a semester abroad or go backpacking, and I’m just wondering if that feeling of like going through law school, getting the corporate job and then seeing the road you were on and not seeing an exit all of a sudden made you reflect and think, oh my gosh, I’m now where I wanted to get to, to feel safe, and I’m realizing that I should have made some other choices potentially.

I did feel safe and I did feel that the career was worth it and would’ve been worth it. I did not see the need for an exit. I just felt that it wasn’t what I was meant to do forever. And so I saw lots of exits. I saw lots of opportunities and, and it’s a really privileged position, just to be clear, to be a corporate lawyer earning a, a great, yeah, salary and learning a ton and working with amazing clients.

Clients and, and I soaked it up like a sponge. I didn’t know where it would take me. Yeah. But I knew it was preparing me for [00:07:00] whatever, for something would come next. So I’ve always had this spirit of adventure and this excitement about what will happen. I still have it. I still don’t know what I want to be when I grow up.

I still wanna be an astronaut. I would totally go back to space camp. So that sense of adventure and exploration is very much still there. And it was there when I was a corporate lawyer, but I, you know, you. When you’re in your early twenties and, and your inner career that most people will expect you’re going to stay in.

It was that expectation and my need to defy it. I think that was nagging. Yeah. Not a lack of appreciation. What was the switch that changed you to pivot? This is a fun little story and I, I want it to be for any listener listening to this to be the thing that causes you to pull the thread. So that’s the main takeaway of this.

So the answer to your question is, I was looking, I was thinking, I was always brainstorming about what would come next. While, while doing the job I was in and soaking it up for what it was, I was always exploring and thinking about what it might be leading me to. And it was like the butterfly effect, you know, that tiny [00:08:00] little disruption can create a massive change.

And so the answer to your question is a series of things that were unusual, atypical, and. In and of themselves completely unremarkable happened. That completely changed my career and my life and keeps changing my career and my life. And the short version of it is my then girlfriend, now wife was over at my condo on a weeknight, which was atypical ’cause we were both in early years of our, our legal practices.

And we just saw each other mostly on the weekends. And so she was randomly over that that one evening. I think she came over after a dinner and. We were watching the news or we had the news on the television and CNN was on and there was a mention of the soon to open. Clinton Library, Clinton Presidential Library in Little Rock and that the reason that was also atypical is that my wife Amy, does not like distraction when she works and we were both working, so it was unusual that [00:09:00] the television was on.

She doesn’t like the distraction. I love it, of noise in the background. And so the fact that television was on was a huge part of this. And the fact that it mentioned the Clinton Library with which neither of us had any affiliation or connection other than she said, wait a minute, my friend works there.

And I think he said something about there being a school. At the library. I was like a school at a presidential library. What? That can’t be real. And so I then googled that and discovered that indeed the University of Arkansas Clinton School of Public Service would be the first graduate school in the US to offer a master’s degree in public service.

And I clicked on the link. They were accepting applications for early admissions, and I filled it out. I. We make so many decisions every day and sometimes just a small decision that could pass off for nothing ends up opening up a huge channel. So did you go and pursue that? The short version as I applied, I didn’t think I’d get in.

I got in. There was no way. I was going [00:10:00] and I went, I. That’s a, that’s a long eight month process. It sounds like you had some push and pull. Well, who, who in their fifth year of corporate law practice. Finally getting your sea legs under you finally seeing what the future might look like, chucks it, and goes to Arkansas for 18 months to get a degree that’s never before been offered.

I was in the first class, and so nobody knew what you would do with a degree that has never before been offered in the United States that had no alumni. Precedent. And so the answer was me. I’m one of the people. I was one of the 16 students who was in the inaugural class, and it all happened because of that one evening listening to the news and giving something intriguing, a Google, and then pulling each thread that came from that tiny little seemingly insignificant moment.

And how did that program change the course of your career afterwards? Yeah, I, I. Spent a summer internship in New York in Harlem, working at the very, at the time, young Clinton Foundation [00:11:00] offices. And then I came back to Arkansas and did a capstone project working on innovative philanthropic models in the Mississippi Delta region, and got a fellowship for one year at the Clinton Foundation, where I spent a one year fellowship turning it into what would become a decade long career, never expecting to go back to the law again, assuming that my career was gonna take me.

Deeper and further into philanthropy. And then one day, sort of, again, one of those seemingly small things, but my boss, who was our CEO and our general counsel, walked past my office and backtracked into the doorway and said, wait a minute, you’re a lawyer. Read this. And that was the day we accidentally started the legal department at the Clinton Foundation, and I left about 10 years later as general counsel.

During the tumult up to the 2016 election and was general counsel of the most scrutinized nonprofit in in history and have lived to tell the tale since and and have been gone now for a full decade. Okay, so you’ve had a decade away from there. In your story [00:12:00] of little threads, what did those 10 years give you?

Did you feel more aligned in that work? Yeah, I, I did feel more aligned to it. It gave me, it really gave me an all-star game equivalent of experience and philanthropy. During a time between 2005 and 20 to 2015, you know, there was so much happening in philanthropy. It was truly a modern golden age of philanthropy.

So many people had risen to prominence. Not being philanthropists. Were becoming philanthropists. And that’s everybody at the time of, you know, former presidents to multiple former presidents and other elected office holders, U2 Bono, others getting involved in social impact work. You know, at the time, Lance Armstrong and the, and the Livestrong Foundation was huge.

And, and you know, gates was, was, was turning from software and Microsoft into the Gates Foundation and this was happening all around us and at scale. And I was working at one of the biggest, highest profile, fastest growing. Global philanthropic organizations. We had 4,000 colleagues and and volunteers working in 40 countries, [00:13:00] 35 US states on over a dozen different initiatives running the gamut.

And I got to sit in the middle of all of it with incredibly smart colleagues, incredible partners, the world over. The sun never set on our work. It was 24 7, 365, social impact, philanthropic, cross-sector, goodness with amazing big names and even bigger, more important work. And I got to see it all. So that’s what it gave me.

It, it literally gave, I didn’t realize it then. I didn’t realize it till I left and I could look backwards again. Connecting those dots looking backwards. I saw that. Holy cow. We were all playing in an all-star game, and we didn’t even realize it every single day. And I wanna be clear, it was hard. It was a lot of really hard work, especially when it became controversial.

20 15, 20 16 was not my first election season. 2008, Hillary ran for the nomination and lost to Barack Obama. It was from my home state of Illinois. I mean, we were in the middle of all kinds of tumults and all the things that were. [00:14:00] Clinton, anything. Clinton politics, Clinton philanthropy, the Clinton family, et cetera, et cetera, brings with it.

You know, everybody kind of had a point of view on one side or the other, and we were just there for the philanthropy. So it was a really intense time, but, but it was an incredibly rich experience full of big things and small things that really prepared me for everything that would come next. Yeah, I can see your excitement and the listeners are just listening, but hopefully that comes through on the podcast, but you just seem that it was so, such an invigorating experience for you.

Like it felt, you just look like you’re alive. Your hands are moving, your body’s moving. It matters, right? Like it, it doesn’t matter what it is. If you are passionate about it and proficient at it, that’s the Goldilocks zone. I mean, that is the Goldilocks zone of living life, because when. Work is part of life, and life is part of work.

I always say I don’t believe in work life balance. ’cause I believe that they’re part of each other. So I believe in work life integration. I didn’t design it. I couldn’t have expected all of these things to happen the way they did. Most of us can. That’s what I wanna say is if you’re thinking about pulling a [00:15:00] thread, if you’re intrigued about something, yes, pull the thread, follow the intrigue, see where it takes you, align it with your passion and proficiency.

Anybody can find work that is worth it for them if they follow what is in that goldilock zone for them. Yeah, and I, I don’t know if you hear this sometimes from students that you teach, but often some of the people that I work with will say, well, how do you know you’ve, you are there? How do you know it’s worth it?

And. If you’ve experienced it, you know, like if you’ve experienced sadness or happiness, you know, nobody has to tell you. Yeah. You don’t always know. You don’t always know. And not every moment is awesome. I’m not always happy and energetic, but when I look back on the things I’ve done, the people I’ve worked with, the opportunities I’ve had, that’s how you know it’s worth it.

And if, if, if you’re, if you’re having more good days than bad, you’re on the right. Right track. And if you’re not start exploring, start considering what it is that would make it better. And that’s how we find it and discover it. And I’m still finding it and discovering it. I, I, I have lots of adventures ahead of me and things I’m still brave enough to be bad at, to see if I can be any good at it.

Yeah, that’s [00:16:00] wonderful. What Scott, are you doing today? Today I’m, I’m serving clients through my social impact consulting firm called Beyond Advisors. That’s, that’s the top answer to what I’ve been doing over the past 10 years since I left the Clinton Foundation. It’s a small social impact consulting, uh, boutique firm.

We work with incredible clients at an equally high profile. Similar to the Clinton Foundation and, and people who are using their profile, their platform, and their passion for purpose. Those are our clients. So those are many nonprofits, many in large philanthropic organizations, some in small operating charities.

Sometimes it’s private sector social impact work, and other times it’s family office work. So that’s where I spend the bulk of my day as a service provider and as a professional. But I’m also writing a book. And trying to share some of what I’ve learned over these past 20 years, that’s still a long process that I’m in the middle of and, and still pursuing for quite a while before it’s gonna be out on shelves and I am turning over other creative leafs there.

There are multiple on the ground and multiple that excite me. So there’s other creative projects behind that book, and [00:17:00] I’m just trying to lean into and be part of the change that I, I think I can contribute to across all the dimensions of the work that I do each day. Yeah, you’ve got a lot on your plate and it sounds like you’re somebody who likes to have multiple challenges at a time.

I love it. It’s fundamental to who we are as human beings, and when you can find multiple modalities to do it. The challenge is not chasing shiny objects. The challenge is, is in, in doing a few things well, instead of too many things poorly, and it’s really hard to know where the line is between that because there’s all kinds of great work that’s worth it in our, in our work lives and in our personal lives.

Yeah. So thinking of the work that you’re doing now and advising family offices and organizations on philanthropy, can you tell us sort of what that looks like as a job? Like what do you do day to day? What takes your time? What kinds of people are you working with? What kinds of projects are you working on?

Sure. We say in our work that we simplify [00:18:00] the hardest parts of doing Good. Well. And what we mean by that is that for social impact organizations, there are certain common frameworks and tools that they need to use to do it well. So when we’re, what we’re focusing on is growth stage organizations or above that.

So we’re not helping startups and we’re not helping crisis organizations in crisis or initiatives in crisis. We can help both of them. We can help both of them a lot, but it’s not our sweet spot, our sweet spot. Are the organizations that already exist and are trying to scale and do more of what they do even better.

We had the good fortune at All Star Game of seeing how the plays get called, seeing how, how things run and knowing how to coach high performers through that. And so our clients were, we’re very fortunate. They are big, heavy names to drop, but they have included and or still include organizations like the Starbucks Foundation, Sean Penn’s core.

We worked with Will and Jada Smith’s Family Foundation. We worked with the nonprofit adjacent to [00:19:00] Chobani, which is called the Tent Partnership for Refugees. We work with law firms to help lawyers do more good, better in their lives and in their work, both in, in the organizations in which they and their colleagues work, but also in serving their clients.

’cause everything we want to do is about scaling what works well. And it’s really awesome to take the unique experience we’ve had and equip other lawyers with that who can plug in the same framework and understanding. Because it, everything we do as consultants is, is pretty. Tried and true. It’s just not widely available in a simplified format.

So when we talk about the hardest parts of doing good, well, and we’re talking about it, let’s say in the nonprofit context, we usually say it’s in four categories. Governance, compliance, legal, and operations. Now, that’s really nerdy heavy stuff, but I’m a really good nerd. At that stuff because my experience made me good at it, not because I’m special, I’m no smarter than anybody else and, and, and a lot less smart than many others.

But I had the experience that taught me what works over and over and over again. And so I’m able to help organizations [00:20:00] quickly understand things like governance. What is it we all know it’s something important, but most of us don’t know how to define it or, or what it really looks like tangibly. And one aspect of governance is having a good board and knowing how to.

Grow your board, engage your board, evolve your board, support your board, et cetera, et cetera. How to have good board meetings, how many to have, how often to have them. We’re really good at that stuff. We have that turnkey, we have crystal clear answers, we have simplified answers. A lot of organizations, there’s 1.8 million nonprofits in the United States, and too many of them struggle with answers to those questions.

We have clear answers to. So those are the things we make not only easy to understand, but even easier for them to put into practice. So that’s just one example of one piece of what we make simple for one kind of client. For another client, it might be they just need a thought partner or the CEO or board chair needs, needs a, an experience and trusted guide or coach to sort of speak to them honestly and openly to assess what they’re struggling with dealing with.

And so there’s a little bit of coaching in what we do, where we can be honest with them and open about whatever they’re struggling with. [00:21:00] Because we we’re sort of a confidential advisor to them in, in, in that context, so. Okay. And strategy, I assume is part of that as well? Yeah, a little bit of strategy. We leave the strategic planning proper, like, you know, putting together the slide deck for that to other kinds of consultants.

We usually pick up where the strategic planning process leaves off. We’re really focused on implementation of the how. And the internal mechanisms. So we do a ton of hr. We do a ton of contract review. We help them take a critical eye at things they’re thinking about doing next, and identify what could go wrong and how to make things go right based on our experience.

So it’s super fun. It’s different for every client. Every day is different. It’s all very exciting and invigorating. Yeah. Scott, I would love to ask you about the income piece, both on charging not-for-profits for this kind of work and how easy that is to do, and then also for you personally, how you thought about balancing income and impact.

Yeah, sure. It’s, it’s easy peasy lemon squeezy. So most nonprofits don’t need a full-time general counsel or strategic counsel. And that’s sort of our [00:22:00] lead, lead services that we’ve, we’ve done this in-house and we’ve helped big thinkers with big ideas, design building, grow organizations, and initiatives for impact.

And we know what it costs. To hire us either at a big organization or a small organization, nonprofit or otherwise. And so, and especially those that are resource restricted and, and have smaller budgets. So we come in at a fraction of the cost of a full-time general counsel that makes us. An incredibly valuable resource at an incredibly reasonable rate.

So we don’t bill for our time. I don’t bill hourly. I left law firm life in 2005 and never looked back to the billable hour. I don’t do that. I that disincentivizes clients from using you. They wanna save the hours, so they don’t want to call you unless they have to. And sometimes that means instead of proactively solving a problem.

A little bit of time. They have to reactively solve a problem later at a much higher expense. We’d rather be on the front end of that. So we bill flat fee. We do coaching, counseling, and consulting. If we’re coaching, we’ll just sell you some time and say, Hey, 10 hours for approximately this much money. Use them when you want to call us.

When you [00:23:00] need us. We’ll be light on the pen. You’ll always get a little bit more value than we’ll bill you for, and that’s for the client. That’s like, I don’t know that I need you for a project right now. That has a start and finish and a specific deliverable, but I really wanna be able to call and talk through things with you.

So that’s a coaching package. Consulting is a traditional consulting project where we need you to help us with this specific product, service, or deliverable. We wanna start here, finish here, and we want the deliverable to look like this. That’s a straight up old school consulting project, and that’s easy.

We will ballpark the time, the value, how much of the team we need to bring into it. We’ll set a fee, we’ll agree on it before we ever get started, and that’s great. And then there’s the. Counseling, sort of the, they wanna have us on call on retainer for a long period of time, usually across several different projects that are evolving on different timelines.

And they know they want us for three to 12 months. And so we’ll usually do a rolling three month engagement if we know it’s gonna be, you know, shorter or longer, we can adjust it. But then that’s a flat fee retainer base, and that’s always set at a percentage of what it would cost to hire us full time based on how much time they think they [00:24:00] need with a mechanism for adjusting it.

And that has been a beautiful thing that has worked. Since day one of our consulting firm, which I knock on wood, was as I say that. Yeah. And probably because what you had mentioned before, you’ve got experience in this and you see patterns across different organizations. And so if somebody is hiring you to be a resource that is not a full-time resource, you bring full-time expertise in the short amount of time.

So you are offering something very compelling in the not-for-profit foundation world. Most of the time they’re bringing us in, in a way either similar to, or or, or adjacent to how they would engage with outside counsel. And so we always say we’re, we’re lawyers, but we’re not your lawyers. But we’ll bring that mindset.

We don’t turn that mindset off. So we help with things like negotiating agreements, reviewing agreements, drafting agreements, dealing with heavy issues like governance and compliance. They have a familiarity with. What lawyers cost per hour. And that’s not unique to lawyers, right? That’s true for accountants.

That’s true for lots of other kinds of consultants. So anybody listening who might be a [00:25:00] service provider or a consultant can do the same thing is what would the average price be? Well, in my world, and especially with the types of lawyers that we are similar to, you’re looking at a thousand dollars an hour or more at big law law firms.

So when we come in, even if we’re just ball parking, just. Estimated chunks of hours. We are way cheaper than that. Way cheaper. Yeah. Yeah. So you’ve got something very compelling. Yeah. Don’t, it’s an easy sell. We don’t, we don’t sell it as, Hey, we’re so much cheaper than these other people that do something different are, but they know, and we know that we’re bringing in incred the same level of value and experience and resources, and that if you are gonna use.

That schematic that’s helpful, which is, well, what is this approximately per hour? If I think I’m gonna get you for 10 or 20 hours a month and this is what you’re gonna bill me, that means your hourly rate, it could be anywhere from 200 to 400 to 600 bucks an hour. That’s still usually well under half the rate they would pay for a a comparable service provider, and that’s a win-win for everybody.

Everybody’s happy about that. Yeah, so for you [00:26:00] personally, don’t share anything you’re not comfortable with, but I am just curious as a lawyer, a corporate track. I’m assuming maybe that would’ve been easier financially, maybe less impact, but maybe not. So I would love to hear how you’ve balanced that and how you look at the idea of fulfillment on those two factors.

I love being a lawyer even though I don’t have a traditional practice and not just because I don’t have a traditional practice. ’cause a lot of what I do is very traditional and looks a lot like what lawyers do. I review a lot of agreements that are really boring. I make lots of revisions or suggestions or additions to venue provisions and governing law provisions.

And I work with non-disclosure. I do all the sort of unglamorous paper pushing that lots of lawyers do, but it all matters and I love it. I am. If you’re out there and you’re a lawyer or you’re a young lawyer, or you’re a law student or thinking about it, or if you are in your forties or fifties or sixties and you’re think, and you always wanted to, you were curious about it.

Yes, go run, don’t walk, [00:27:00] be a lawyer. It’s the single greatest profession on Earth in my view. There’s only two ways to run the world. Guns are lawyers. That’s it. There’s no in between and it’s not a joke. It’s the threat of force or the rule of law, and we’re seeing this play out in some pretty scary and unprecedented ways right now, but look all over the world, throughout all of human history.

It’s either rule of law or threat of force, who are the custodians of the rule of law? There is one answer and only one answer. Lawyers. Yes, there’s different types of lawyers. There’s, there’s judges are lawyers, litigators are lawyers, law firm lawyers are lawyers. Public defenders and prosecutors are lawyers.

But the rule of law is cared for and, and, and advanced by lawyers. It is the single greatest profession in civil society and most of human history because we don’t function peacefully without them. Without the rule of law and access to justice. So I I, and it’s interesting and it’s fun and it’s full of great people who are all wonderful people.

[00:28:00] Yes, there’s bad people in all professions, but it is not unique to lawyers. I don’t think lawyer, I, I love a good lawyer joke, but I think lawyer jokes are less. Funny when lawyer lives are more inspiring and I have yet to meet a lawyer, I don’t find inspiring some way or another. So I love it. And even though my practice doesn’t look like a quote unquote traditional, lots of practices don’t look traditional.

And those who are in those big offices at big firms are very happy to. I’m married to a big law lawyer who goes to an office and does big deal work that makes my eyes glaze over ’cause I don’t understand it. It bores me. It seems dry to me. She loves it. Too, and she’s a very traditional lawyer, so love what you do and if you’re doing something, love what you’re learning about it.

Even if you don’t love the substance of what you’re doing, know how it fits into this fabric of the world in which we live. One of my favorite quotes is there are no passengers on space ship Earth. We are all crew. So do the thing you love, do the thing you believe is worth it, and I think being a lawyer [00:29:00] is worth it.

Scott, when you’re talking, the word that comes to mind is it seems like you feel like it’s the honor of your life to do this work. I love it. It’s like an honor for you versus a I have to. Well, here’s a great quote, and I teach this in a course that I love teaching. Here’s a great hack for all of us when the work doesn’t feel worth it when we’re stuck.

And I’m gonna give a really specific example from my own life about how I feel when I’m not excited like I am right now. Turn your have tos into get tos. Let me give you a specific example. If it’s the first of the month, I have to send out invoices. Ugh. I have to send out invoices. I get to send out invoices.

I don’t have to. I get to What does it mean? What does it, okay, Kern, what does that mean? I have clients. My business is successful. There’s people who find value in the service, we provide them. I don’t [00:30:00] have to send out invoices. I get to, and you know what else I get to do? I get to put a little note in QuickBooks before I hit send that says, what an awesome month.

So excited to be part of your team. Thank you for the opportunity. Opportunity. Can’t wait for another great month. What a great year it’s been, what a great quarter it’s been. What a great board meeting we had last month. What a great employee handbook and code of conduct we updated. You don’t have to to get to turn your have tos into get tos.

It changes the way you look at things. Yeah. I love that, Scott. If someone is young in their career listening to you today and thinks, wow, this guy really loves what he does, he’s so inspired. Where do I start to get to where you are? Where does somebody start? Be insatiably curious. Pursue those threads, pull those threads.

I’ll finish this answer where we started the, the, the podcast, which is find the things that intrigue you and pursue those, and the more passionate you are about it, pursue those most, you know, your, your not [00:31:00] to-do list is as important as your to-do list. Don’t get distracted by shiny objects that are only moderately interested.

Interesting. Focus on the things that light you up most and be curious about them. It is that curiosity that has opened up these. Completely unexpected doors that at every point have opened up new opportunities, and you have to pick which ones to walk through. You can’t walk through ’em all. I can’t either.

I’ve had to say no to all kinds of things I didn’t do. It wasn’t a linear path for me. The, the things I’ve talked about pursuing weren’t the only options in front of me. It was pursuing the ones I was most curious about and exploring why I was. And again, that goldilock zone of what you’re passionate about and proficient at, that’s where.

The greatest opportunity lies. So be curious about those things and pursue those things. And that applies whether you’re young or old, because I meet so many people in their late second or early third act of life who say things like, well, I did this thing and I achieve this level, but now I want to fill in the [00:32:00] blank.

Give back, do something more meaningful, start my own thing, pursue some dream un pursued. And it’s always that thing they were more passionate and provision about. I feel bad because I wish they would’ve done it before. It doesn’t have to be either or, it can be both and, and I would give the young people permission to pursue their careers as a both and, and not an either or.

You don’t either have to be. Miserable or happy. You don’t either have to be wealthy or fulfilled. You can be both and in many different ways. You can be wealthy in ways that matter, that may not be other people’s definitions. So both, and be curious. Pursue the things that light you up and excite you most.

I love that. Scott. Where can people find you and learn more about what you do? You can find me in a couple of places. If you wanna pick one, find me on LinkedIn, that’s where you can sort of bridge out to the rest. But I’m on LinkedIn. I use my middle initial there. So I’m Scott m Curran, as in Matthew, but Scott m Curran on LinkedIn Beyond [00:33:00] Advisors is my lead organization there.

There’s a few other things I do and you can drill down to the websites from there. I do have a personal website that also sort of tells the Fuller story, which is my full name with my middle initial scott m kern.com. And of course, if for anybody in the social impact space, they can find me on our business [email protected].

Oh, well it’s so wonderful to have you. Thank you so much for being here and sharing all your passion and wisdom and look forward to keeping in touch. Thank you for doing this podcast and bringing out examples of work that is worth it for everybody because we should all be doing the work that is most worth it for the life and world in which we wanna live.

So thank you. Love it. Great. Thanks Scott. Thank you. I want to share a few thoughts from this episode. First, I love what Scott suggests about transforming your perspective by turning have tos into get tos and reframing obligations as opportunities that reflect the value of your work. Second, never underestimate the power of [00:34:00] curiosity, follow what intrigues you and pull those threads as seemingly small moments can open doors for extraordinary career paths.

Third, there’s absolutely room to be a nice guy in business and do well financially. Scott’s approach proves you don’t have to choose between doing good and doing well. And finally, sometimes the behind the scenes work that seems boring or unglamorous is where the real value and money lies. Scott doesn’t need to do a lot of convincing to get his clients because he offers specialized expertise that fills a critical need.

And that’s a wrap for today’s episode of Work That’s Worth It. Remember, every conversation we share is designed to empower you to build a career that’s truly worth your time and energy. There are future disruptors out there just like you, who would appreciate the conversations in this podcast. Please support me by spreading the word and sharing this episode with a friend or two, or visit my [email protected].

That’s spelled GE. [00:35:00] O-R-G-I-E-N-T-H-O-V-E_N.com. Until next time, ask yourself, what problems am I solving and are they worth my valuable time? Your intentional choices today can lead to exponential impact tomorrow.

Thanks for listening.